tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post7418380926431816668..comments2023-06-05T11:51:38.383-04:00Comments on Evolutionary Psychiatry: Tales of the Metabolically DerangedAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-56375178911793603422011-12-01T15:23:11.594-05:002011-12-01T15:23:11.594-05:00Interesting point on the cost of calories. Here&#...Interesting point on the cost of calories. Here's some numbers I recently calculated for the cost of 1000 calories from different food:<br />canola oil @225/L: 25c<br />medium ground beef @200/lb: 145<br />butter @300/lb: 95c<br />Sugar @100/kg: 25c<br />Potato @25c/lb: 55c<br />quick oats @175/kg: 45cRalph Doncasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037504544742962130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-73226071812282835822011-12-01T15:17:38.297-05:002011-12-01T15:17:38.297-05:00A TED talk about insulin, FOXO, and longevity:
htt...A TED talk about insulin, FOXO, and longevity:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdpIKXLLYYMRalph Doncasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037504544742962130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-22003615491759805662011-12-01T13:04:45.694-05:002011-12-01T13:04:45.694-05:00Too low of glucose can also cause other problems, ...Too low of glucose can also cause other problems, such as high cortisol. Cortisol is involved in gluconeogenesis (producing glucose from fats and proteins), so when you're not ingesting glucose in food then your body is producing a lot of cortisol to generate it from fats and proteins. That's why I like to follow Mark Sisson's carbohydrate curve. He says that staying between 50 - 100g is good for weight loss while you can easily maintain weight between 100-150, and you start gaining weight at much higher levels. But again, this also depends on each person. <br /><br />Regarding bad breath, I'm pretty sure that bad breath on a SAD diet is from overproduction of bacteria in the mouth. Every time I eat something sugary, I can feel my breath change. I like to think that I also gave them something tasty to eat. Bacteria love sugar just like we do!Elisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15289636766070063875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-8062864733329534272011-11-29T12:27:31.426-05:002011-11-29T12:27:31.426-05:00I've been pouring over your blog and many othe...I've been pouring over your blog and many other sources on the gluten issue. It's sooo interesting and I definitely think we have a gluten epidemic in this country. NYT's magazine came out with an article last week, which wasn't too helpful except for the 2nd page where they talk about the 1998 and 2033 studies...I know you mentioned that the blood tests aren't definitive, but these high numbers of positive blood tests are amazing. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/magazine/Should-We-All-Go-Gluten-Free.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all?src=tpPeace+Happinesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10960891733453396524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-26172042245443839602011-11-28T13:04:01.782-05:002011-11-28T13:04:01.782-05:00I find the analysis to be of the either or variety...I find the analysis to be of the either or variety, and many of us with normal weight have issues such as CAD from eating for decades the recommended SAD diet. In my case as a 60 year old with CAD and a family heart disease history, i find it interesting that when I look at NMR results the percentage of small LDL to total LDL is about 45-50% with the inclusion of "safe starches" and with little to zero "safe starch" see the small LDL at close to zero. Oh, no diabetes, normal weight, thyroid,D, blood glucose levels and whatever else may be out there. I would suggest that for people such as myself if one believes small LDL is a risk factor for CAD, and can only be affected by carbs that limited to no carbs is the way to go.<br />We older folks may not have a system due to aging that can accomodate diets for the 20-30 yr old Paleo types. Dr. Rosedale treats diseased people; he directionally may be more right than wrongstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05900683979200427762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-24767304800479172972011-11-28T10:23:51.187-05:002011-11-28T10:23:51.187-05:00@js290. thanks for the quotes. I know that a diet ...@js290. thanks for the quotes. I know that a diet too high in carbs can kick a person out of burning the ketone bodies they produce, but my understanding (Emily herself has said this many times) that with a moderately low (compared to SAD) level of carb consumption, one can maintain metabolic flexibility and switch easily and efficiently between burning glucose as a fuel and burning free fatty acids and ketones as a fuel. My comment, however, specifically raised the idea (new to me, but perhaps not to others), that it is the inefficiency in burning ketones, in particular by most people on an agricultural and especially industrial, high-carb diet, that is responsible for bad, smelly, morning breath. My experience is that ketone breath (which I had when I first went Paleo very-low-carb) resembled morning breath in a striking way. I don't get it any more, now that I can burn ketones as a fuel. I still get morning breath, but I have the sense that it is not as powerful as it was in my SAD days. (I'll have to ask the wife for confirmation on this point.)Aaron Blaisdellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17204484453346358921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-56260131206709860372011-11-28T07:16:13.318-05:002011-11-28T07:16:13.318-05:00The linear way of thinking is so much a hallmark o...The linear way of thinking is so much a hallmark of scientific reductionism and its problems. Anyone ever heard of a vicious cycle? A virtuous cycle? Isn't that possible here? There are other elements involved that propagate the good/bad effects of glucose? Moreover, what about a systems based approach? Looking at only glucose as the enemy makes for a good arguing point, but isn't it possible that a normal person can eat a wide range of foods--even wheat, milk, and what your mother fed you growing up? Has anyone met anyone over 100 years old? Did they get their with a ketogenic diet? Did they never eat starches or desserts occassionally? Are their 100 year old eskimos?Though I am a low-carb advocate, I am not a total no-carb advocate across the board! Isn't that the same logic that brought us to this point? Demonization and beatification of nutrients is silly. It's not either-or, folks. It's not: your either with the food terrorists or not when it comes to food.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955418159473734203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-12387174210260864522011-11-28T00:18:53.684-05:002011-11-28T00:18:53.684-05:00@Aaron Blaisdell: Dr. Rosedale actually mentions ...@Aaron Blaisdell: Dr. Rosedale actually mentions this fact about ketosis, "It isn’t necessarily ketosis that we want…it is the burning of those ketones that is beneficial, and the two are often opposite. Ketosis is what is left over from not having burned them. Eating carbs can inhibit the burning of ketones that the MCTs may be making, thus resulting in ketosis, but not necessarily ketone utilization."<br /><br />@Chris Kresser: It's not just a matter of whether glucose is toxic, the knowledge of which could help determine how much extra glucose each person can tolerate. The more fundamental question is whether dietary glucose is necessary if the liver can meter the production of glucose needed by the body. What health benefits would one gain by ingesting an unnecessary nutrient?js290https://www.blogger.com/profile/08157385596237909630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-4212221633275600962011-11-27T12:16:46.480-05:002011-11-27T12:16:46.480-05:00Excellent post! Happy Thanksgiving, Emily. It just...Excellent post! Happy Thanksgiving, Emily. It just occurred to me while reading your post, that morning breath may be stronger in an individual who is not keto adapted (i.e., does not have a flexible multi-fuel metabolism). When they wake up in the morning following an all-night fast, their body is not able to effectively utilize the ketones, and thus it is excreted in the breath. I'm sure others have had this insight, too, but I don't remember coming across this yet in the blogosphere.Aaron Blaisdellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17204484453346358921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-91947782479167468732011-11-26T16:13:13.014-05:002011-11-26T16:13:13.014-05:00"Whether or not anyone cares about my opinion..."Whether or not anyone cares about my opinion as a psychiatrist is another question"<br /><br />Pfft. Most only care about the opinions of doctors of organs that they actually use ^_~<br /><br />"Why come up with many different models for different use cases when a single model will work? This is how evolution and natural selection does things: the best abstraction wins." (js920)<br /><br />False. If this were true, we wouldn't even make ketones; we (life) have burnt glucose for much longer than fat. Nature selects for fitness, not abstraction.<br />(Disclaimer: I am neither a biologist nor a medical doctor.)<br /><br />"I'm just trying to put this in the context of an optimal and most generalized solution because that's how I was trained to solve problems."<br /><br />That is a noble goal. Generalization, though, must be done with care; medicine isn't mathematics (not for a very long way down, at least). To paraphrase Albert Einstein: "as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Also, E=m (in natural units, of course) but that's neither here and now nor there and then ^_^)strakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15253066549264629665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-45660263984577033932011-11-25T13:36:23.884-05:002011-11-25T13:36:23.884-05:00What about the fact that LC diet is a great tool f...What about the fact that LC diet is a great tool for normalizing such wide spread condition as a hypertension? My mom is off her BP medicine after switching on LC. May be there too many sick people in the population who should watch their carbs? They are not necessary the ones with well-defined mental issues or diabetes, but also people with less-optimal health.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-54806238521341945962011-11-25T11:31:41.158-05:002011-11-25T11:31:41.158-05:00Not to mention the fact that we now know that diab...Not to mention the fact that we now know that diabetes is not always progressive. Some people with pre-diabetes will NEVER develop full-fledged insulin-dependent T2DM, no matter how crappy their diet is. <br /><br />People without a gallbladder may not digest fat well. Does that mean healthy people with intact gallbladders shouldn't eat fat?<br /><br />People with hereditary hemochromatosis should avoid iron-rich foods like organ meat and oysters. Does that mean all people should avoid those foods?<br /><br />Even if glucose is toxic for diabetics, it doesn't follow that it's a problem for the metabolically healthy. Nor does it follow that excess glucose caused diabetes in the first place (I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I am saying you can't logically draw that conclusion without supporting evidence demonstrating it to be true.)Chris Kresserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16374375198215570796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-81734880830834580232011-11-25T09:02:52.962-05:002011-11-25T09:02:52.962-05:00Heretic!!! LOL
No, I totally agree with you. I ...Heretic!!! LOL<br /><br />No, I totally agree with you. I think Rosedale has gone off the deep end with his extreme recommendations. Glucose toxicity begins at 0mg/dl?? I can't believe that guy is a real doctor.MMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03671778377233705356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-36083316039211223362011-11-25T07:52:20.774-05:002011-11-25T07:52:20.774-05:00A lot of diets can reverse diabetes and treat obes...A lot of diets can reverse diabetes and treat obesity. I've seen a lot of people have great success with a vegan diet, is a vegan diet healthy long term?? Not in my experience. I think the same can be said for VLC diets, although they'd probably fare better than vegan diets if they eat the whole animal(glands, organs etc.)Keyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15393678431793120959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-56395793953324016182011-11-25T04:09:00.040-05:002011-11-25T04:09:00.040-05:00Well said.
Also, one thing thing that doesn't...Well said.<br /><br />Also, one thing thing that doesn't come up very often talking about low-carb or paleo, is that many people just don't feel very well psychologically eating that way; anxiety, feeling blue etc are common complaints of very low-carb diets. <br /><br />This is something that I think the paleo movement are ridiculously bad at adressing. They wipe it under the rug with "it passes in a couple of weeks", which is obviously wrong since low-carb studies commonly have trouble keeping participants eating low-carb.Jenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05486171759244019075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-2760883923637691112011-11-25T01:57:36.779-05:002011-11-25T01:57:36.779-05:00A very thoughtful post. I lost a good deal of weig...A very thoughtful post. I lost a good deal of weight, and had big improvements in my blood lipids, on a low-carb diet with very little starch or fruit, but I would not go out on a limb and say you are wrong to include some starches or fruit. A friend of mine had similar results with Weight Watchers, which is a low-fat approach.<br /><br />After talking about our experiences, we wondered if the big win is simply a low-*junk* diet. My working definition of that would be no sweets, no sugary drinks, and no manufactured foods that did not exist in, say, 1940. Cream, butter, fatty meats, potatoes (prepared at home), white bread, fruit, vegetables; no candy, no soda, no fruit juice, no pastries, no cake, no pie. Low-carbers, low-fatters, vegans, and paleos would all find some things to object to, but surely there would be some benefit. A pity that an investigation into this approach would be unlikely to obtain funding.Aphidmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02910162688285896503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-62188278523106041252011-11-25T01:56:10.886-05:002011-11-25T01:56:10.886-05:00“Once you get past a tipping point and start takin...“Once you get past a tipping point and start taking out beta cells, hyperglycemia, insulin resistance, and increasing damage occurs, then you have fewer options, dietarily speaking. Even then, a hard core ketotic zero carber who never cheats may be in good stead, but those who cheat are now (physiologically) even more insulin resistant than they would have been if they ate enough carbs to keep them out of deep ketosis all the time… so glucose "spikes" and area under the curve for glucose and insulin would be even higher than if there were more carbs eaten on a regular basis.”<br /><br />I don’t understand how “hard core ketotic zero carbers” could become more insulin resistant than those maintaining a low but regular (100 gms/day?) carb intake. It is my understanding that once carbs are low enough for the body to switch to ketones, receptors become more abundant, i.e. normal, and insulin sensitivity returns to normal. If my understanding is correct then, the body then once again becomes able to deal with a cheat amount of carb, much like a pre-metabolic syndrome healthy person. A low but moderate carber’s body may not return to a normal receptor density to the same degree and would therefore continue to face glucose & insulin swings.<br /><br />On a different topic – magnesium – I understand that organic forms (citrate, etc) have a bio-availability around 30% whereas magnesium oxide has very poor (0%? 5%? 10%?) availability. Any idea what the bio-availability of the magnesium in Epsom Salts is? It’s a highly water soluble form.Dim Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15258739554140260100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-58413862057296540352011-11-25T00:10:34.103-05:002011-11-25T00:10:34.103-05:00Dr. Deans,
I'm in no position to formulate th...Dr. Deans,<br /><br />I'm in no position to formulate the degree in which people can tolerate different forms of fuel. But, I agree with you it's probably not linear, and I don't think Dr. Rosedale's statements is making that argument. From his perspective, he seems to be looking for a more optimal and generalized diet that promotes health that can be backed up by scientific research. I think his basic point really is a diet that is therapeutic for obese and diabetic cannot (should not and will not) harm those who are not obese and diabetic. That's what it means to have the most generalized solution. <br /><br />Very simply, if healthy person A has no side effects from both diet Y and diet Z. But, metabolically broken person B suffers side effects from Y but therapeutic effects from diet Z, why would a health care professional waste time with diet Y when diet Z works in both cases? Another way to think about it is the number needed to treat (NNT) favors diet Z: NNT-B(dietZ) < NNT-B(dietY) and NNT-H(dietZ) >> NNT-H(dietY). No discussion of causality needed yet. We're just measuring the outputs of the metabolic black box.<br /><br />I want to avoid presenting a false dilemma here, but it's legitimate to ask in which direction a more "optimal" diet for "health" points. Your major contribution to this discussion on the blogosphere, I think, is Your Brain on Ketones. I'm just trying to put this in the context of an optimal and most generalized solution because that's how I was trained to solve problems. I agree with you that we should have better metrics of metabolic broken-ness so that it's lees of a black box. A solution with too many "if-then statements" is not a very good solution. :-)<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the response and Happy Thanksgiving! :-)js290https://www.blogger.com/profile/08157385596237909630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-34368719613224159542011-11-24T13:42:32.203-05:002011-11-24T13:42:32.203-05:00Not only is insulin sensitivity a big deal, but th...Not only is insulin sensitivity a big deal, but the other argument seems to be that glucose is more reactive than fat and glycates proteins/causes oxidative stress. Well don't we have anti-glycation enzymes and antioxidants? And aren't these things determined by the quality of our diets? The defense against the reactivity of glucose is pretty impressive, almost like we evolved to be able to use it for energy!<br /><br />Nobody says that fat is bad because when it isn't metabolized quickly enough it accumulates in the cell and causes insulin resistance. Okay well raw vegans say that, but they say a lot of questionable things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-63668974132732550342011-11-24T13:29:18.570-05:002011-11-24T13:29:18.570-05:00Well said Emily! Happy Thanksgiving!Well said Emily! Happy Thanksgiving!Paul Jaminethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15122941682076992645noreply@blogger.com