tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post5934942973720737853..comments2023-06-05T11:51:38.383-04:00Comments on Evolutionary Psychiatry: It Starts With Food and Two Years of Evolutionary PsychiatryAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-87957084753333005162012-06-16T14:04:10.319-04:002012-06-16T14:04:10.319-04:00I've heard nothing but solid endorsements abou...I've heard nothing but solid endorsements about this book. However, much of the praise is about the psychology and doing a 30 day trial. So my question is, what's in for someone who's been eating this way for 2 years (read a few books already) and has ZERO psychology issues -- cravings, lack of discipline, whatever -- to fight against?Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02070774351020347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-38657519788084938452012-06-08T18:28:25.352-04:002012-06-08T18:28:25.352-04:00That should read "vertebrate gut"....That should read "vertebrate gut"....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-84413199897331428382012-06-08T17:17:38.266-04:002012-06-08T17:17:38.266-04:00I guess everybody's got their something. My wi...I guess everybody's got their something. My wife would be a cheese addict if she allowed herself and I am indifferent to it. I eat cheese mostly if it has been aged -which if one is concerned about casein at least one study suggests that there are no functional casomorphins in aged cheese. <br /><br />Also, it is a little know fact that cheese aged more than 6 months is almost all made from raw milk, even if not labeled that way. The govt does not require pasteurization for cheeses aged at least 6 months, so they usually are not pasteurized. My next door neighbor, who literally owns a cheese company (Bel Gioioso) is my source for this.<br /><br />There is one research group that believes that each of the 6 major families of proteins that account for most of the allergies in humans corresponds to a helminth protein. And we know that nematodes colonized the mammalian gut tens of millions of years before the entire IgE system (which only mammals have) evolved in response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-47512481506997064702012-06-08T14:48:01.461-04:002012-06-08T14:48:01.461-04:00In the book, Dallas and Melissa note that one of t...In the book, Dallas and Melissa note that one of the things people miss and crave the most in the first part of a Whole30 is cheese. I remember missing it intensely the very first time I dialed down on paleo-style nutrition back in 2010, though I don't think I even ate that much cheese as I wasn't really raised on it. Interesting. <br /><br />Other thoughts--- peanuts and soy have lookalike antigens, as to chitins and tapeworms (as you told me), so overexposure and a bored immune system looking for action...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-23803989478556912802012-06-08T14:06:43.628-04:002012-06-08T14:06:43.628-04:00Certainly good thoughts. But the meta view that in...Certainly good thoughts. But the meta view that interests me most is to ask a more basic question than the immediately pragmatic one of what foods should we avoid to make us feel better or how do we best avoid them. <br /><br />The question that interests me is why are there whole foods that we need to avoid at all?<br /><br />Is it because of the kernel of paleo reasoning -that some of these foods are evolutionarily discordant?<br /><br />I used to think so, but I don't think so anymore. I think the reason we need to avoid any of the problematic foods is likely to be because of an environmental evolutionary discordance that is NOT dietary in the sense of what we are adapted to eat. <br /><br />I think it is all related to the old friends hypothesis. Missing portions of the gut biome cause the immune dysregulation that underlies some of these food intolerances, in addition to the epidemic of diseases of immune dysregulation that restrictive diets can admittedly be an effective bandaid for.<br /><br />**FWIW, I eat only pastured butter and fermented plain greek yogurt and no other dairy. My reasons for avoiding milk and cream have to do with eating a low reward diet that is low in liquid calories and avoids non-stoichiometic added fats rather than adverse reactions to dairy. I have tried dairy elimination and it has had no discernible effect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-3479800517483947492012-06-08T10:10:46.264-04:002012-06-08T10:10:46.264-04:00I think the book shines pragmatically. But let...I think the book shines pragmatically. But let's muse on the "allerginic reasoning," classically allergenic foods are wheat, dairy, egg whites, soy, shellfish, tropical fruits, peanuts and tree nuts. Any classic gold standard elimination diet will get rid of those (some "paleo" ingredients and some not). And of course we know that in cultures with much more rice consumption, rice allergies are more common. And certainly there are those sensitive to beef and pretty much anything (my mother is allergic to sesame seeds). <br /><br />So there's definitely the exposure piece, but also the foods that just seem to be more problematic in general (let's say shellfish or wheat). Just as there are pharmaceuticals that catch a lot more people with rashes (such as Bactrim or the antiepileptic medicines, some antibiotics), and some that very rarely cause rashes (lorazepam as an example). <br /><br />As a population, are we better off avoiding the hot ticket foods (hey, even shellfish??) for the most part and striving for a lot more diversity in what we eat to reduce exposure to any one thing? That I think is a big part of Michael Pollan's argument. Paleo celebrates diversity in organs and vegetables, but there are a lot fewer readily available safe proteins out there.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-5067568746744742012-06-08T00:43:22.736-04:002012-06-08T00:43:22.736-04:00It was not obvious to me that you had whole foods ...It was not obvious to me that you had whole foods vs orthodox paleo as a theme - that makes sense now that you've framed it that way but the post did not seem to elaborate on this, what I agree is a legitimate and interesting theme.<br /><br />There may be some missing context unless one reads the long exchange I had with Dallas on Robb's blog that was what prompted him to follow me to my blog and post after my n=1 mini-essay. <br /><br />Dallas had a guest post and a follow-on discussion thread on Robb Wolf's that frankly struck me as strident and a little condescending, although admittedly preaching to the choir over at Robb's. The gist of it was that one must be either dim or weak of will to not think it obvious that dairy is problematic. Having heard this kind of thing so many times, I piped up to point out that you never hear orthodox paleos warning about beef or eggs or shrimp or inplying that it is stupid or dangerous to eat them the way "dairy" is supposed to be.<br /><br />The thing which is even more apparent to me now, as I delve deeper into the the sea of immunoregulation and the old friends hypothesis, etc: <br /><br />The problems with dairy have nothing whatever to do with dairy "not being paleo" or humans not being "evolved" to eat dairy products. We are just as evolved to eat them as any other food that we can have food sensitivity or allergy to. <br /><br />The paleo conceit is that having an adverse reaction to a food is because we are not "adapted" to it, and THIS IS WRONG. we have reactions to precisely the foods we have the most exposure to, and it is no stupider or less natural to eat butter than it is to eat a peach, even though the former may give you acne and the latter may make your mouth itch because you have an allergy to birch pollen (this is incredibly common and is known as the oral allergy syndrome). <br /><br />Imagine Loren Cordain et al claiming we are not evolved to breathe air with ragweed or birch or timothy pollen in it and that is why we suffer hay fever. <br /><br />So call me a nit-picky carbsane window-breaker, but the reasons we eat this or that matter as much as whether it "works" to avoid or to eat this or that - or they should be if we are not to be politicians instead of scientists (e.g., i lost weight on low carb so the CIH must be true) And the moralistic tone of orthodox paleo rubs me the wrong way, I admit, even as I have been guilty of assuming such a tone myself from time to time.<br /><br />My issue was not in any way that dairy is not a problem or that it is useless to try eliminating it - far from it - it was trying to go the other way - to enlarge the method to entertain the idea that ANY food might not be tolerated, and to thereby remove the paleo puritanism - the judgement - that maintains that it is somehow "obvious" that dairy should be a problem because it is only something that may be "tolerated" - like cigarettes or something. <br /><br />I don't think being able to eat dairy is any more special or surprising than being able to eat beef, and the science is on my side from what I have read so far…<br /><br />But perhaps I'll check the book out. What works always matters to avowed pragmatists, and I count myself one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-51735883805053706912012-06-08T00:00:03.953-04:002012-06-08T00:00:03.953-04:00We're pretty "meh" about black beans...We're pretty "meh" about black beans occasionally, and for some people, pretty stoked about kefir (context matters!). So... yeah. Bigger problems to address.Dallas @ Whole9https://www.blogger.com/profile/16203063750292282598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-40123166313016401502012-06-07T23:56:50.833-04:002012-06-07T23:56:50.833-04:00Emily, it's a little ironic that I came across...Emily, it's a little ironic that I came across this most recent series of comments while taking a break from updating our Dairy Manifesto (just as you make reference to some of your thoughts about your older work, we've found some of our older stuff sorely in need of some touching up). Maybe I'll fire the update off to Kurt when I'm done for his comments. :)Dallas @ Whole9https://www.blogger.com/profile/16203063750292282598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-46446812930256522352012-06-07T09:02:01.207-04:002012-06-07T09:02:01.207-04:00And of course in a world where dehydrated yogurt b...And of course in a world where dehydrated yogurt bites and cereal puffs are considered healthy food for toddlers, maybe we should stop worrying about black beans and kefir.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-91555522637995433312012-06-07T08:09:02.518-04:002012-06-07T08:09:02.518-04:00Nah, I thought the old blog post with Dallas repre...Nah, I thought the old blog post with Dallas represented the tension between the orthodox paleo and the whole real foods folks. It Starts With Food has an ortho paleo prescription, but not because it is "paleo," they have lots of good reasoning behind it that is sensible enough (I recommend the book, it is a good read). I think the real question is yours from your blog post (linked above, so I hope that anyone who questions your argument and reasoning will simply click to see it)… is it harmful or silly to recommend avoiding, let's say, "dairy" or legumes (excepting peanuts), as those are perfectly good wholesome food groups with lots of nutrients and, if cooked or properly fermented, the antinutrients are mostly down for the count (compared to say, nuts). I think that's an interesting meta argument and the real question of what is good to eat and live on, though the argument per se is not explicit in the book.<br /><br />I hope no one gets the impression that you are anti whole foods, because that would be ridiculous.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-55671124133087104852012-06-07T08:03:09.191-04:002012-06-07T08:03:09.191-04:00I accidently deleted this comment in the email lin...I accidently deleted this comment in the email link on my phone, so I have to cut and paste it from the text of the email (sorry Kurt):<br /><br />Kurt G. Harris MD has left a new comment on your post "It Starts With Food and Two Years of Evolutionary ...": <br /><br />Well your review makes it sound a bit like someone wrote a book to carry on an argument with me about dairy from an 18 month old blog comment. <br /><br />Of course, context matters. What you haven't linked to is the entire exchange on Robb Wolf's blog where the issue was whether it made sense to warm people that dairy was bad because it was not "paleo" while not ever mentioning that many people have issues with totally "paleo" food items like shellfish, fish, beef, pork and totally normal food like tomatoes and potatoes and peaches and pears and apricots...<br /><br />A scientifically based elimination diet not based on Loren Cordain's mythology about milk would not eliminate dairy while ignoring beef (bovine serum albumin allergy is very common), and shellfish, to name just two very obvious example. And then we are not even addressing the overwhelming epidemiogic evidence in favor of dairy that does not even exist for all the "paleo" lean meats that are given a complete pass.<br /><br />But the issue we were actually addressing on my blog, which Dallas came to comment on, was how reliable was the subjective n=1 experience, and whether we should give equal weight to the mountain of success stories we hear with vegan, macrobiotic, 30 bananas a day. Macdougall, etc. As I recall, I said that n=1 subjectivity was not worthless, but should always take a back seat to objective data like fat mass, blood pressure, etc.<br /><br />" "It's really not that radical--unless you consider eating nutrient-dense, unprocessed food radical. Which, in today's microwave-dinner-fast-food-low-fat era, might very well be the case."<br />This book is Dallas' side of the argument with Kurt Harris."<br /><br />Reading that quote, some might get the impression that I and Dallas are somehow on opposite sides of the whole foods argument. Nothing could be further from the case. <br /><br />Perhaps the entire book is an argument with me about the evils of "dairy" (whatever "dairy" means exactly) but that sounds like a boring read if so. I have not read it so I don't know.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-37227450130947560512012-06-03T17:51:00.278-04:002012-06-03T17:51:00.278-04:00Dallas, I think you have, and that is part of why ...Dallas, I think you have, and that is part of why I enjoy the book so much. It really dials down on the psychological component and why we crave. In that Kessler book , "The End of Overeating," he had a prescription for food rehab at the end that I really didn't think would work. Your book comes much, much closer, and for many it will work (and already has). That said, some folks will need a lot more of a personalized approach, but no book by itself will be enough. There are some folks for which "moderation" really is the key, and 80/20 is the healthy balance :-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-79293508880175685332012-06-03T17:46:36.044-04:002012-06-03T17:46:36.044-04:00Ah. Dallas was kind enough to point me towards th...Ah. Dallas was kind enough to point me towards their thoughts on this subject, which they had considered and aired a couple of months ago:<br /><br />http://whole9life.com/2012/04/sometimes-it-is-hard/Stefanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939382265882607907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-19977058110661587052012-06-03T16:53:31.816-04:002012-06-03T16:53:31.816-04:00Emily,
Thanks for your supportive words. After po...Emily,<br /><br />Thanks for your supportive words. After pouring our hearts into this book, it's encouraging to see that our intention and message have been adequately conveyed. I'll add in response to Stefani's comment (above) that we wrote specifically about modifications for people with eating disorders here: http://whole9life.com/2012/04/sometimes-it-is-hard/ Just like autoimmune conditions or nightshade sensitivity or whatever other personal idiosyncrasy, disordered eating requires some "special handling" above and beyond the eat-this-not-that approach. We sincerely hope we've struck that balance between Tough Love and compassion in our writing.Dallas @ Whole9https://www.blogger.com/profile/16203063750292282598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-39589364812972707752012-06-03T10:07:38.635-04:002012-06-03T10:07:38.635-04:00I would personally LOVE if you wrote a book. I'...I would personally LOVE if you wrote a book. I'd buy five copies. I'm in my twenties and surrounded by people who suffer from depression, diagnosed and undiagnosed. I myself have a tendency towards but it stays away if I treat myself well. (protip: unrefined carbs are essential!)<br /><br />We have a huge problem with depression and suicide in this country (Ireland), we always have though it was either hidden or called something euphemistic like 'bad nerves'.SamAbroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10592531616331089307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-28177453290719313722012-06-02T21:14:43.468-04:002012-06-02T21:14:43.468-04:00Hi Emily
I had a similar reaction to the book. Wh...Hi Emily<br />I had a similar reaction to the book. What made it worth six million stars in my book was also the emphasis on the psychological, something that is egregiously, really, so egregiously and erroneously, missing from conventional diet books.<br />One of my readers, in response to my post, pointed out that tough love isn't sufficient for people with real problems. She argued that the reason she had liked my own writing so much was how much I emphasized forgiveness and being gentle with yourself with respect to your eating behaviors, and she found my love of Whole 9s book confusing. Maybe she was right.<br />But maybe not.<br />I believe that forgiveness is crucial (and Melissa and Dallas do, too), but the type of 'tough love' that Dallas and Melissa undertake I believe is meant to disarm the food and the Whole 30 undertaking, rather than the individual. They assert, for example, that their program is "not hard. Beating cancer is hard...drinking your coffee black is. not. hard." Perhaps they could have spoken with more sympathy for addicts and disordered eaters, but on the other hand, they may have done disordered eaters a service by presuming their ability to undertake this "easy" program.<br />Or something. Perhaps.<br />Thanks for the review. I thought Melissa and Dallas's book was both delightful and important, and I am so happy to see it's benefits being sung from corners other than my own.<br />StefaniStefanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939382265882607907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-92176697487215559682012-06-02T16:41:46.868-04:002012-06-02T16:41:46.868-04:00The thing is, even getting very positive results a...The thing is, even getting very positive results after a 30-day elimination does not necessarily prove that the eliminated food was "bad" or that it will continue to have the wrong effects, as it could just as easily be explained away as some form of "Reset" of the gut flora. Re-introduce moderately, perhaps accompanied by some pro-biotics and voila! I can have dairy again with impunity! maybe.tremendohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05282615694851685852noreply@blogger.com