tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post5887227198755505187..comments2023-06-05T11:51:38.383-04:00Comments on Evolutionary Psychiatry: Magnesium Deficiency and FibromyalgiaAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-24792019012715887472013-11-08T11:53:33.577-05:002013-11-08T11:53:33.577-05:00I would highly recommend topical magnesium oil as ...I would highly recommend topical magnesium oil as an alternative to oral supplementation as it is better absorbed and very well tolerated. Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple turned me onto it (and this blog too :) )<br />You could also look up the book and/or website of Dr. Sircus, the author of Transdermal Magnesium Therapy. <br /><br />As always, thank you Emily for another wonderful post. <br /><br />Love, <br />Foggy dude <br />Foggy Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14969827456313477530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-89014127542019222102013-04-20T16:41:50.473-04:002013-04-20T16:41:50.473-04:00A useful online database of magnesium content of f...A useful online database of magnesium content of foods for those who prefer dietary magnesium to supplements:<br /><br />http://foodhealth.info/fibromyalgia-diet/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-8469666733169289082012-04-19T17:21:03.538-04:002012-04-19T17:21:03.538-04:00I have fibro, take Lyrica for it, also acid reflux...I have fibro, take Lyrica for it, also acid reflux, take Pariat for that, have been taking Eurthromyacin for motility and to decrease diarrhea have been told by gastroenterologist to avoid magnesium.. is this why I am depressed??Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17414365846873351776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-44160880759543489162012-02-09T08:46:52.395-05:002012-02-09T08:46:52.395-05:00Forgot to add I am one of the lucky ones who does ...Forgot to add I am one of the lucky ones who does take Mucinex 1200 mg twice daily (guaifinesin protocol). It has helped me immeasurably. If I run out or cannot afford to take them for more than a few days every massage therapist I have used in the past 12 yrs has noticed a marked decline in my body and muscle tissue, lumps become huge instead of just small.mom2pekes2https://www.blogger.com/profile/00404787132981231604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-66764055196105749312012-02-09T08:37:05.847-05:002012-02-09T08:37:05.847-05:00I tried to keep on point with your discussion of t...I tried to keep on point with your discussion of t3 and t4, but I am fairly uninformed about thyroid problems. My mother had a goiter for many years after which she was dx with low thyroid. My test results always come back in the normal range but right on the border line of normal/low and have for over 25 yrs. I have been unable to get a dr to treat me as having an inactive thyroid. How in the world do you get someone to pay attention and at least try synthroid or something to help. I feel my energy waning on a daily basis, not periodically changing. Yes, I have FM, CFS, Osteoarthritis (Mobic the only one I can tolerate) of which more than one dr has told me is the most severe case they have ever seen, dysthymia (do take Prozac and Remeron). Degenerative Disc Disease, Spondylosis, have had a lower fusion on L4, L5 and tailbone, but damage too extensive to allow a fusion in my neck (would need a 13 to 15 in bar fused from base of my skull to center of my back). These are just the biggest problems. Have had Epstein Barre, Mono and a few other viruses for good measure. They shot horses still don't they? So how do I go about getting a dr to treat the thyroid issue?mom2pekes2https://www.blogger.com/profile/00404787132981231604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-38838043142996476122012-02-08T16:31:07.282-05:002012-02-08T16:31:07.282-05:00I want to ask how our adrenal glands fit into all ...I want to ask how our adrenal glands fit into all this. <br /><br />I had celiac and systemic inflammation which was resolved by paleo diet but later developed fibro symptoms following long overload of stress which resulted in the classic cluster of "adrenal exhaustion" symptoms (orthostatic hypotension, low temp, circadian rhythm messed up, and very low 24-hour salivary cortisol levels). For me the fibro symptoms came with the adrenal symptoms, though my thyroid levels tested normal. <br /><br />I have topical hydrocortisone (low dose) I take on and off which seems to help with the pain (I don't apply it where it hurts -- the idea is to give the adrenals a break). I've had a cold the last week and taking guaifenisen and I think it's helping with the pain too. I have taken mag supplements and epsom salts baths for a couple of years and they don't seem to help a whole lot with the pain, though maybe they make it better than it otherwise would be.<br /><br />I've been told by my doc here that giving thyroid medication to someone with adrenal trouble may further weaken the adrenals and that you have to get the adrenals functioning better first. <br /><br />Any thoughts on how the adrenal glands fit into this picture of impaired methylation, hypothyroid, fibro, etc etc? Is some of the pain accounted for by build up of lactic acid that the body lacks the capacity to get rid of?Cate's Follyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07489170974303163269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-18374642924624508992012-02-08T09:37:43.077-05:002012-02-08T09:37:43.077-05:00Due to my n=1 I am very bias toward Paleo diet bec...Due to my n=1 I am very bias toward Paleo diet because it addressed an unbelievably long list of health issues in my case. My doctor is surprised that I don't need an asthma medication, cream for eczema,have no more seasonal flues or urinary tract infections last 4 years, no symptoms of premenopause, especially mood-swings, no leg edema (I was prescribed deuretic for that). He is also surprised I didn't regained the lost weight. The irony is I started the diet to cure migraines and loose weight. Migraines are much better but not gone, some weight is lost, but I am not really thin (size 12).Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-74988857953601440182012-02-08T08:42:58.820-05:002012-02-08T08:42:58.820-05:00"The studies are tough."
Yes, I know. A..."The studies are tough."<br /><br />Yes, I know. And we certainly are not in a position to conduct such studies. Nor are we the ones responsible that such such studies haven't been done. But still, a quote I grew quite fond of recently brings it to the point: <br />"The plural of anecdote is not data and even the most intuitively obvious medical beliefs must be tested"<br /><br />I think most deviations from the SAD will be helpful for *most* people, whether it is Archeovore, PHD, Sisson's Primal, Lutz's "Bread Free", Kwasniewski's "Optimal Diet", Atkin's diet or the countless others. And most people will not experience adverse events. Most. Most certainly not all. In that context, just look at statins! Some people say, looking at the numbers gathered by the studies, that total mortality stays the same with statins – less people die from heart related problems, more from other problems. And the absolute number of people dieing is really small! You don't see this in small sample sizes, especially if you have drop outs you don't follow up. <br /><br />I think most deviations from the SAD will bring down mortality, but that needs to be tested.<br /><br />The other thing, we simply don't know all pathogenic processes involved when eating SAD. For example, I don't know how solid the research is and how strong the effect is, but there seems to be some indiction that gluten exorphines act as opioids. So basically when dropping wheat and other grains, it is an abrupt discontinuation/separation or a decrease in dosage of the intake of a an opiod. In other words: withdrawal. Different people react differently to wheat and the SAD (after all, not all people suffer from depression and anxiety) and people might react differently to withdrawal.<br /><br />We need this tested.<br /><br />These might be theoretical problems (and scaremongering by me). Or these might not be theoretical problems. <br /><br />We need this tested. Tested for each disease, I am afraid. We need to know: Is there an overall beneficial effect? (I guess yes) And are there risks for some? (I guess yes)<br /><br />If a drug or a treatment, that is used in disease A, is going to be tested in disease B, it first needs to be asserted if it is safe in disease B, before the efficiency can be tested in disease B. Medical science had to learn this the hard way, I guess, and we shouldn't ignore it. It may be overkill, but we won't know if we don't test it.<br /><br />Sorry to repeat myself. We need this tested.Tony Machhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14823430729798784689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-40067025432415071772012-02-08T08:38:19.977-05:002012-02-08T08:38:19.977-05:00About Fibromylagia and Chronic Fatige:
Chris Kre...About Fibromylagia and Chronic Fatige: <br /><br />Chris Kresser has some interesting information about causes, research, labtests and treatment for his patients. <br /> It is on Robb Wolf's Podcast 117 (you can download a transcript)<br />http://www.robbwolf.com/2012/01/31/chris-kresser-migraines-iodine-omega-ratio-fibromyalgia-dysbiosis-vitamin-c-and-the-personal-paleo-code-paleo-solution-episode-117/<br /><br />"So number one is that chronic stressors deplete glutathione, the reduced form of glutathione, and that leads to oxidative stress; and when there's oxidative stress, toxins will accumulate because we're not able to get rid of them. Those toxins interfere with the protection and the intracellular metabolism of vitamin B12. So when you get a functional deficiency of B12 and those accumulated toxins react with a lot of the B12 that's in the body and they make it inactive as I described earlier.<br />And then a lack of sufficient B12 establishes the block, basically blocks that methylation cycle by messing with methionine synthase and then sulfur metabolism becomes totally disregulated. And when sulfur metabolism doesn't work, glutathione will become depleted because<br />glutathione is an end product of sulfur metabolism.<br />So then you're in a really nasty vicious cycle where low glutathione leads to destruction of B12 and inactivation of B12, which in turn leads to even further reduced glutathione levels. And then you get sulfur metabolites<br />draining excessively into the transsulfuration pathway and then getting excreted, and that further depletes methionine. Then you get folate draining from the cells into the blood via the methyl trap mechanism and<br />you're just stuck in this really bad vicious cycle and that's why chronic fatigue is a chronic condition.<br /><br />There's a way that you can figure out if this is happening to you, and there's a test called the Methylation Pathways Panel. It's offered by Health Diagnostics Research in the US and by I think the European Laboratory of Nutrients in<br />Europe and a scan lab in Europe. I've ordered it for eople in Europe and in the US. You have to be a ractitioner to order it so you have to find someone who can order it for you. There's also organic acids testing from places like Metametrix in Geneva, and there you'd be testing for urinary methylmalonic acid. If that's high,<br />that means active B12 is low. Fromino-glutamic acid or Figlu, if that's high, then that suggested active folates are low; and then pyroglutamic acid, if that's out of range, then glutathione is depleted.<br />And then there is the MTHFR or methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase mutation panel, DNA panel from Spector Cell, and that will test for mutations, genetic mutations that cause problems in the metabolism of folate and homocysteine; and if you have the mutation, you're way, way more likely to be suffering from this problem that I described.<br />In terms of treatment, it's fairly involved -- I'll have to maybe talk about it another time or I'm going to be writing about it more and talking about it on my show. But it involves active B12, active forms of folate, phosphatidylserine or phosphatidylcholine and some other nutrients that support the methylation cycle. So anyone out there who is suffering from chronic fatigue or thinks they may be suffering from chronic fatigue or<br />fibromyalgia, you can search for glutathione depletion and methylation block and you'll be able to find a lot of information."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-6818810796277035142012-02-08T08:31:45.028-05:002012-02-08T08:31:45.028-05:00As someone who has been diagnosed with fibromyalgi...As someone who has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, my feeling is the following. Its just another way of saying you in conflict. No doubt eventually it has physical causes, eg your magnesium or mercury goes down or whatever, but that for me is a sign, or what adds to the problem. Essentially the body cannot handle its stress load and breaks down. I would treat it as any depression or anxiety disorder. Simplify the diet, less sugar, less meat, etc, more natural foods. A light exercise regimen, swimming is probably the best. This helps with many things, mood elevation, will release some endorphins,etc. A good multivitamin and omega 3s just to top up any thing that has become deficient. Taking and anti depressent/sleeping tablet, and go see a therapist. <br /><br />Its a long process, and you need to be committed. Emily if i may ask, have you thought of doing a study on TRE and fibromylagia and depression? Sounds like a great idea to me.darkonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04160173409680700121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-90503346508180343342012-02-07T20:57:36.866-05:002012-02-07T20:57:36.866-05:00Hi,
something that came to mind after reading the ...Hi,<br />something that came to mind after reading the comments: Dr. Myhill in UK who has had trouble with the licensing board who recommends high Mg intake and 'stoneage diet' http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fibromyalgia_-_possible_causes_and_implications_for_treatment <br />(sorry, I don't know tinyurl).Krissiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08006151375757659813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-6441564053922011632012-02-07T16:21:05.656-05:002012-02-07T16:21:05.656-05:00Lamictal interferes with the conversion of Folic a...Lamictal interferes with the conversion of Folic acid to dimethylfolate. Thus on lamictal you can have high Folic acid levels. I read one paper stating that high Folic acid levels are thought to interfere with the uptake of the neuroactive form, methylfolate, into the CNS. One could presumably avoid foods and vitamins supplemented with Folic acid (leafy greens and beans and whatever rich in natural "folate" which is the dimethylfolate, should be okay) and then take supplemental methylfolate. Also, having some B vitamins out of whack can upset the others as well. Make sure your B12 is greater than 400.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-71471288193203728992012-02-07T15:59:55.166-05:002012-02-07T15:59:55.166-05:00Dear Emily, I'm responding to this blog but th...Dear Emily, I'm responding to this blog but the one that I really read that was so fascinating was your blog about Folic acid. I wanted to run some facts by you. I have simple partial seizures for which I take Lamictal. <br /><br />The last several months I've been having strange neuropathy symptoms and increased anxiety. They ran a test on my blood and found everything was pretty normal (in fact it was all very healthy) except for my folic acid. My level of folic acid was 88 ng/mL. My neuro was surprised. She said she'd never seen levels that high.<br /><br />I know this blog isn't to dianose, but in your studies have you every heard of high levels of folic acid causing neuropathy in an otherwise very healthy person? I'd like to take the information to my neuro.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11573354179519141077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-54702272825764244692012-02-07T10:14:34.804-05:002012-02-07T10:14:34.804-05:00Ok, one more thought re T4/T3:
I have seen a stud...Ok, one more thought re T4/T3:<br /><br />I have seen <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3049061" rel="nofollow">a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3049061)</a> showing that T4/T3 is secreted via bile into the gut. And I remember somehow sketchy reading that a part of the T4 is turned into T3 (via some bacteria that lives there). Afterwards, both T4/T3 get reabsorbed. Don't know how much secretion/conversion/absorption happens in gut (or how solid the study was). Another one for the gut-connection list.<br /><br />While I think the gut-connection is underrated by most medical people, the few "pushing" it do overrate it a bit…<br /><br />What I can't get a handle on is the whole rT3 thing. How much do we know about rT3? The mainstream endocrinology seems to ignore it totally, while it seems to me that mostly the fringe embraces it.Tony Machhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14823430729798784689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-28177039622515251182012-02-07T10:08:40.161-05:002012-02-07T10:08:40.161-05:00Tony - Yes, I am adverse to making specific recomm...Tony - Yes, I am adverse to making specific recommendations other than I think a paleo-style diet (Archevore or PHD), reasonable exercise, stress reduction and sleep hygiene will be beneficial for people in general and will not be likely to cause harm. When you get more specific, things become much more cloudy. Some people tolerate more carbohydrate or more fruit or more whatever. For me, "reasonable exercise" is crossfit 3X a week plus other low intensity work (hiking, cleaning, etc). There will obviously be a different prescription for a 70 y/o with arthritis or a 20 y/o athlete. The studies are tough. They aren't done in such a way, often, that will provide answers to the real question. A perfect example was the statin meta analysis from my last post. It gave us relative risk numbers when what we actually need to make a viable clinical decision is absolute risk and sex-specific adverse event risk.<br /><br />All, re: thyroid. There is a robust clinical literature for using T3 for depression in psychiatry, not only a host of older studies, but even up to the very large STAR-D trial where it did well (or at least as well as anything else, and better than most) as an adjunctive treatment. I can't speak to the use of T3 for hypothyroidism alone because I am not up on the literature. My clinical experience seems to match what @WilliamS's endo has found, which is interesting.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04429177284200775781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-25377035485050169412012-02-07T10:00:23.547-05:002012-02-07T10:00:23.547-05:00Two more things:
I think Bill Lands has good data...Two more things:<br /><br />I think Bill Lands has good data on the hole Omega-3/-6 affair (alas, he is a terrible presenter of what he gathered…)<br /><br />I was trying to make a few points at Nikolay's blog with regards to the scientific process and giving nutritional advice with regards to illnesses like T2DM – but Nikolay wants to live out his adherence to anarchistic theory and seems hellbent on proving "the man" wrong, that he has no problem with post-modern relativism. Sigh. But I don't see the point of arguing there and maybe I am wrong person to do so anyway…Tony Machhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14823430729798784689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-90996683418472555932012-02-07T09:35:50.311-05:002012-02-07T09:35:50.311-05:00There are, of course, no studies as far as I know ...<i>There are, of course, no studies as far as I know for paleo diets combined with intensive lifestyle interventions for fibromyalgia, so it is madness and pseudoalternative crap medicine to promote that idea on my blog, whereas there is growing literature evidence for Cymbalta (and pregabalin and milnacipram, the other two FDA-approved treatments).</i><br /><br />Unfortunately, this is a very sensible position.<br /><br />My personal n-1 anecdote (which isn't worth more than $0.02, I'm afraid) is a mixed but net positive one. First of all, I am not sure if I have FMS, CFS or something else. So the usability is a bit dampened. And secondly, after initial success with Paleo, I thought I could test other things as well. I stumbled upon cphnhelp, thought they have answers to everything (MS? It is cp! CFS? It is cp! FMS? It is cpn!) They advertise a protocol with high amounts of VitD and NAC, and do not have the scruples you voiced in that quote above. Suffice to say that VitD and NAC did more harm that good – and anybody talking about "die off" and having only a couple of anecdotes is most likely a qauck.<br /><br />So even with these caveats, here is my n-1: Paleo helped me get rid of my depression and anxiety (I blame wheat). It helped me get rid of part of my skin problems (I blame milk-products, as acne flares up when I eat milk-products every now and then). It temporarily improved my CFS/FMS (or whatever they are) symptoms. Unfortunatetly my journey into VitD/NAC/Quackland did make my CFS/FMS symptoms much worse and tainted my n-1.<br /><br />And one more observation: While I had little problems with IBS or some such, the "Chinese" or "Asian" food we have here gave me the runs.<br /><br />I would dearly like to see proper studies done with regards to a Paleo diet intervention in various diseases, something like Terry Wahls is doing in MS. But I wouldn't be surprised if food is only one etiologic component. Wolfgang Lutz reported of a stroke risk during a rapid transition from Standard Western Diet to his "bread free" diet – this alone would be counter to the "first do no harm" dogma you have. :-) We need to take the anecdotes and make proper studies based on them.Tony Machhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14823430729798784689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-7761982463471818702012-02-07T08:59:07.732-05:002012-02-07T08:59:07.732-05:00… because there are no definitive biomarkers [in F...<i>… because there are no definitive biomarkers [in FMS] … </i><br />You should look into the gene-expression studies (with a aerobic exercise challenge) done by Kathleen and Alan Light. Their work may not be ready for clinical application, but <i>there are</i> measurable differences between patients and controls. And their sample size with regards to CFS (both patients and controls) seems large enough, alas but it lacks a bit on the FMS side.<br /><br />I made two posts about two lectures by Alan:<br /><br /><a href="http://parakoch.blogspot.com/2011/06/alan-light-2007-lecture-physiology-of.html" rel="nofollow">Alan Light 2007 Lecture: The Physiology of Chronic Pain and Fatigue</a><br /><br /><a href="http://parakoch.blogspot.com/2011/06/alan-light-2011-lecture-gene-expression.html" rel="nofollow">Alan Light 2011 Lecture: Gene Expression Biomarkers for Chronic Fatigue & Fibromyalgia Syndromes</a><br /><br />The mostly focus on CFS, but they do look into FMS as well. There is a interesting newer study where they compared CFS and MS patients.Tony Machhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14823430729798784689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-29884883880998368862012-02-07T08:20:08.671-05:002012-02-07T08:20:08.671-05:00Galina, don't despair. If you wind up overdose...Galina, don't despair. If you wind up overdosed on T3 (you'll have to base this on how you feel), you can always reduce the T3 dose. Even though my doc has found that most people do best on a T3 dose about 1.2% of their T4 dose, it does vary quite a bit. A few people, he says, seem to thrive on 100% Armour thyroid extract, at 20% T3, and a few seem to do great on the conventional T4-only regime. Unknown biochemical differences between us presumably explain such variation.<br /><br />One problem is finding a way to get the appropriate lower T3 dose if you need it. He uses compounded meds to provide the desired T3 dose (from pharmaceutical T3 or thyroid extract) in time-release form, since T3 is so short acting. I know some people without access to that use small amounts of pharmaceutical T3 in divided doses through the day instead.<br /><br />His book will explain everything he's learned, and there's always the hope of finding an open-minded doc willing to try his methods. It's not easy, though, in the current climate. Most seem afraid to depart too much from the standard of care, even if they realize it may not be very good. I don't quite know what I'll do myself when he retires! I do believe there are docs out there willing to experiment within reason (this blog is proof of that); just may be a project to find them.<br /><br />Also, bear in mind that many people say they do great long term on 100% thyroid extract meds such as Armour. My doc has told me that might be due to self-selection, i.e., the people coming to him are the ones who have failed other approaches, almost always T4-only conventional care but often also thyroid extract meds prescribed by holistic docs. His experience could be a bit skewed by that. Another reason he advocates careful experimentation and avoidance of doctrinaire attitudes.WilliamShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09021312909928686165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-23249518050952331842012-02-07T08:01:09.058-05:002012-02-07T08:01:09.058-05:00Woo, I'm pretty sure if you asked my doc your ...Woo, I'm pretty sure if you asked my doc your question about T3 he'd say the only way to know is to try. That reflects the "functional" approach reflected in the title of his upcoming book. No one knows enough to confidently predict such things for a given individual. <br /><br />I think the T3 doses he uses are probably safe since they are small fractions of doses that have been used very safely for decades. However, bear in mind that his use of T3 is specifically intended for *hypothyroid* people who need hormone replacement. The wrinkle is that hypothyroidism, in milder forms at least, is not reliably diagnosable with any existing lab work. That's why new patients of his with signs and symptoms consistent with hypothyroidism are offered a trial of T4 even if labs appear "normal." It's safe and either the patient feels better or not. Many times, people have gotten dramatically better when other docs refused to treat them due to "normal" labs. He asks how he could possibly know where a given patient's body wants to be in the very wide "normal" ranges. The only way to find out is to experiment a bit.<br /><br />But using T3 outside of hypothyroidism would, I think, be well beyond anything he has done or advocated. <br /><br />As for iodine, I am convinced enough to be on 50 mg of Iodoral. It's allowed me to reduce my thyroid meds by almost half. None of my docs have ever seen or heard of anyone recovering that much, apparently, from Hashimotos. It's interesting<br /><br />I'm not absolutely sure doses that high are safe long term, but the benefits to me (and many others) are undeniable, and due to sky high bromide toxicity on iodine loading tests, I'll take my chances at least until I eliminate that bromide. It may be that widespread toxic halide exposure, including bromine, explains why we might need iodine supplementation at higher doses than provided by even seaweed-rich natural diets.<br /><br />As you may know, the docs with the most iodine experience do seem to believe that iodine deficiency underlies much hypothyroidism, and hyperthyroidism, and much else including breast cancer.WilliamShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09021312909928686165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-65593093149294146322012-02-06T22:06:36.874-05:002012-02-06T22:06:36.874-05:00I wonder if I would benefit from T3 and feel more ...I wonder if I would benefit from T3 and feel more energy. I take T4 and my free T3 is 0.84 ng/ml (ref. range 0.80 - 2.00 ng/ml)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-10558285705536483862012-02-06T21:24:36.847-05:002012-02-06T21:24:36.847-05:00I think the increase in thyroid incidence is a par...I think the increase in thyroid incidence is a part of increase in autoimmune deceases since most hypo are diagnosed with the Hashimodo type.<br />@William, I thought when I changed my Synthyroid on Aamour and finally learned how normal people feel, all my thyroid worries were over, but your post says "not yet". I feel like a deflated balloon in a spirit sense. Should I run and find a decent endo, or there are things to watch that indicate a trouble and there is a chance that Armour works?Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-69975557858691925072012-02-06T20:50:49.038-05:002012-02-06T20:50:49.038-05:00@WilliamS
I find your ideas very interesting. I wo...@WilliamS<br />I find your ideas very interesting. I wonder if T3 can help post obese individuals? Our thyroid problems are downstream relative/absolute hypoleptinemia, and are therefore entirely physiologic, but I had always wondered if a dab of t3 can transform my dilapidated metabolism in a similar fashion as 0.04mg/kg recombinant human leptin, a very low dose protocol. I have been afraid to pursue this because of scare mongering pertaining to thyroid hormone.<br /><br />I have also suspected the conventional idea that excess iodine is a problem is wrong, and think many hypothyroid issues are complicated by too little. Sure we have iodized salt, but few people cook anymore and salt food, most people are living on chips and takeout and candy none of which is iodized salt. I do think part of the increased incidence of thyroid issues are related to malnutrition and low iodine, that which is not a straightforward immune system rebellion.ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-10208480629399332712012-02-06T17:27:53.824-05:002012-02-06T17:27:53.824-05:00@Emily
Reverse t3? This can be an effect of excess...@Emily<br />Reverse t3? This can be an effect of excessive T4, so it stands to reason adding small amounts of T3 while decreasing T4 in hypothyroid pts presenting with depression/fatigue will help. TSH may be okay and T4 may be okay (or not) but T3 is reverse type which opposes thyroid. Euthyroid sick syndrome. <br />Just goes to show poor hypothyroid people are one of those diseases that medicine does a mangle job of treating well, similar to obesity, diabetes, or any chronic non-infectious disease really.<br />It's good that there are some doctors educated enough to help patients, making up for the general ignorance of others. Will never forget being told by endocrinologist within a few minutes: "I have another patient with your symptoms/like you, and have not been able to help". Really, you've never heard of PCOS? You're an endocrinologist? That's sort of scary.ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3045634714760830992.post-237953090224466712012-02-06T16:16:21.691-05:002012-02-06T16:16:21.691-05:00"I also find that if I use the psych doses (2..."I also find that if I use the psych doses (25-50 mcg) people almost always get side effects and become hyperthyroid within a few months. I've had much better luck with 2.5 or 5 or 10 mcg combined with lowering the dose of T4 a bit (going from 150 mcg to 125, for example)."<br /><br />Yes, my endocrinologist says that hypothyroid people who've been on standard T4 only treatment generally feel fantastic for a while when given T3 at high doses. They're starved for T3 and feel great while repleting. But before too long they get overdosed on T3 and start to feel lousy again. They need the T3 dose lowered to physiological levels, which he has found to be only about 1.2% of the appropriate T4 dose for most people (it does vary). Your example of 2.5 mcg T3 with 125 mcg of T4 isn't too far from that.<br /><br />This is why thyroid extract, e.g. Armour, has such mixed record. At 20% T3, it works wonders for repleting T3 but patients eventually wind up overdosed on T3 and consequently their long term T4 stores deplete as TSH gets badly suppressed. They get addicted, in a sense, to the short-acting T3 since they have grossly inadequate long term T4 stores to draw upon and therefore are badly dependent upon constant T3 provision. He has to carefully wean them from the T3 overdose while repleting T4, which he says can be very difficult. <br /><br />The well meaning holistic docs who favor "natural" (pig) thyroid extract don't seem to understand this. What's natural for a pig thyroid does not seem to work very well for humans taking an oral medication. We are not pigs, and besides that T3 and T4 are differentially absorbed in the GI tract and probably handled differently in the liver. This process bears little relation to a pig's thyroid injecting hormones directly into its circulation.<br /><br />"A couple of times I've had some wrangles with endocrinologists but mention 'it's for psychiatric indications' and they often get scared and back off."<br /><br />Good plan, since I think you can't argue with endocrinologists! The T4-only gospel is not much open to question. My doc's been trying to get other endos to try--just try!--his methods and see if the patients don't in fact get better from all manner of complaints, psychiatric and otherwise, that hypothyroids are so well known for. No takers yet. He points out that patients vote with their feet: he's had many come to him from the big shot endos at the Harvard teaching hospitals, but few if any go the other way. They know what makes them feel better.<br /><br />If you're interested, he has a book coming out about all this:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Functional-Approach-Hypothyroidism-Traditional-Alternative/dp/1578263875/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1328561144&sr=8-4<br /><br />His earlier book is good, too, but he has refined his methods significantly since it was written.<br /><br />Based on my own experiences, and that of others I've sent his way, I really do believe that T3, at the right dose for true bioidentical hormone replacement, has incredible potential in medicine, and not just mental health and fibromyalgia. A hypothyroid friend of mine just had her disabling dry eye clear up 75% just by adding T3 to her T4 regime. As my doc says, if your thyroid's broke, you're broke!<br /><br />Related to the thyroid-fibromyalgia connection is the other big promising idea I'm aware of: iodine repletion. Quite a bit on iodine and fibromyalgia here:<br /><br />http://www.fibromyalgiarecovery.com/IODINE%20-%20Solution%20to%20health%20problems.pdf<br /><br />All a bit off your post topic, I know. Sorry, but promising ideas for natural approaches to fibromyalgia and much else of interest on this blog, so related enough I hope. Until someone patents their own high dollar designer T3 or iodine, however, getting the medical world to try such things out may be tough.WilliamShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09021312909928686165noreply@blogger.com